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In response to Rebuttal of Lunar Sabbath ArticleEdit

Lunar Sabbath Unbunked 1, rebuttal to Tom Martincic's article "Beware of the Lunar Sabbath". (MP3, 133 Megs, 145 minutes)

23 PROBLEMS AND RESPONSESEdit

Is the new moon day is a rest day?

"The ordinary New Moon days of the other months are also days of blowing trumpets so, these too, are Sabbath rests." ( regarding Leviticus 23:24-25)

The New Moon is not one of the ordinary work days

The New Moon is a worship day -- a day of no buying or selling, and NOT one of the ordinary workdays (Ezekiel 46:1; Isaiah 66:23 and Amos 8:5).

Objection: Neither Ezekiel 46:1 nor Isaiah 66:23 FORCE the idea of a rest day upon a new moon day in any way more than Passover is a "rest day" (it isn't).

Response: Agreed, Passover is not a rest day. Agreed, work dedicated to YHWH, especially traveling is appropriate for the new moon day New moon is a worship day.

Objection: Without a new-moon-is-a-rest-day type of understanding, the ENTIRE thing falls apart.

Response: The new moon is not a rest day as the Sabbath day. In Lev. 23, the Sabbath is the primary Feast on which all the other Feasts are based. The new moon is mentioned numerous times in scripture, many times in the same phrase as the Sabbath is mentioned.

Objection: the "proof" for the new moon being a rest day is extremely shaky and loose at best... if it was this critical to the proper observance and understanding of when Yahweh's Sabbath is, it would have been clearly written by Yahweh, and yet it absolutely isn't.

Counter: All it takes is one scripture to prove something, see above.

Problem #1Edit

Around 15:40, the statement is made: "according to Numbers 10:10 new moon is a time of holy convocation" ... this is clearly an incorrect statement and is used to "support" the already-present idea that new moons are "holy" "rest" days. This problem is a fundamental MAJOR FLAW in the foundation of the entire recording, as you'll see below. Numbers 10:10 "Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your Elohim:I am YHWH your Elohim"

in Numbers 10, a further part of the ritual for the New Moon days and the appointments is described --

Make two silver trumpets for yourself; you shall make them of hammered work; you shall use them for calling the assembly and for directing the movement of the camps.... And when the congregation is to be gathered together, you shall blow, but not sound the advance. The sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow the trumpets; and these shall be to you as an ordinance forever throughout your generations.... Also, in the day of your gladness', in your appointed feasts, and at the 'beginning of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; and they shall be a memorial for you before your God: I am the LORD your God (verses 2, 7 and 8, 10).

Nothing there about a holy convocation (See problem #4 below). This is adding our own ideas into scripture, and Amos 8:5 is not nearly clear enough on its own, NOR is it in the Law, to show that a new moon day is a "rest" or "holy convocation" day. Again, as we're both fond of noticing and using, if something is not in the Law, it must be very carefully evaluated as to whether it is adding, removing, or supporting something from the Law.

Counter: The assembly is mentioned in Num 10:2, so Amos 8:5 is not on its own int his regard. A memorial is to be observed. Trumpets are blown to indicate convocations and observance. More burnt offerings are stipulated at the beginning of months. It is impossible to observe both a new moon and a saturday sabbath, they are in conflict. Amos 8:5 establishes new moon being observed, and the prophets are considered part of the Law. The entire book of Deuteronomy was actually a new-moon sermon, to me, a clear example of new moon observance, in the Law.

Amo 8:5 Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?

Problem #2Edit

At 18:00 to about 20:00 ... In trying to explain why they were travelling in Ezra 7:9, it is stated that "in the original Exodus, they were returning home to Jerusalem". However, these particular people had never been in Jerusalem before, and they wouldn't arrive there for several centuries to come. Additionally, where he is going with this disproves the "problem" with marching around Jericho for 7 days being a "problem" Saturday keepers face. creates the idea in this explanation of "holy travel" versus "regular travel" .... is not marching around Jericho at the command of Yahweh something that would qualify as "holy travel" ? This is an inconsistency in application of scripture and our own ideas. It is, however acknowledged at the end of the recording, that the Jericho march on the Sabbath is not an issue, but many other Lunar Sabbatarians disagree.

Response: In context, the reference was of the captives "returning" to Jerusalem, in the sense that the "nation" was returning. In the sense that the descendents were part of the nation. Agreed, an exodus on Sabbath would not violate the Sabbath, but that was also not an offensive move. Regarding marching around Jericho, it makes perfect sense that the first of the seven days was a new moon day, seeing that it was an offensive move, commanded by YHWH, and blessed.

Problem #3Edit

22:15-24:30 Again here, is reading "holy convocation" and "day of rest" into ALL MO'EDIM where this concept is clearly proven false by Leviticus 23:5. Passover is not a commanded day of rest, nor is it directly shown to be a holy convocation as the other holy days are -- verse 2 probably applies to it. It definitely isn't a "rest" day, scripturally. New moons are not mentioned in Leviticus 23 at all, and thus are not commanded holy convocations nor days of rest (see problem #4). However, His people should have a get-together for study and meals on the new moons.

Response:

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.

Could there be an issue here regarding "when does the day begin"?. All mo-adim are not rest days, as neither the wave sheaf offering day nor Passover are rest days. vs 2 and vs 4 apply to Passover, which is designated as a Feast to YHWH. New moon day is not the same as Sabbath day. If there should be a get-together, then it is special time. If it were not considered a set apart day, working 6 days a week would take precedence over an unsanctified, optional "get-together". It is not possible to observe the new moon separately from the Sabbath. They stand or fall together. Since there should be a get-together on the new moon, this shows that the new moon is special. Another calendar opposes the monthly calendar set by the moon (the continuous 7-day cycle). YHWH only has one calendar.

Problem #4Edit

25:00 has an issue with Amos 8:5 being used to say that it is referring the Day of Trumpets, but does not consider that in the Law, there is zero evidence that the new moon days are days of rest. In fact, Amos 8:5 is used to reason that into Numbers 10:10, and thus then is used to prove that Amos 8:5 is referring to all new moons. This is circular reasoning.

Response: Amos 8:5 clearly supports new moon observance. Also, the book of Deuteronomy was preached on the 1st day (new moon) of the 11th month.

EXODUS 40:12-15:

Aaron and his sons were sanctified for seven days (Leviticus 8:33) which began on a New Moon (Exodus 40:2) -- and on the 8th day was an assembly (Moed) of the congregation. The point we should notice is that during these seven days they were not to go out the door of the tabernacle for seven days, day and night -- see Leviticus 8:34-35.

No calendar Sabbath would disrupt these seven days of consecration because it was from the New Moon till the 7th day of the moon -- and after the six workdays they assembled the congregation. Why did they assemble the congregation? To observe the 7th day Sabbath which fell on the 8th day of the moon!

Problem #5Edit

At 30:33, he tries to say that "no, we don't believe that the moon is set for all moedim" but that is exactly what lunar sabbatarians read into Leviticus 23:2-3. At 36:18 he says "we don't claim that all moedim have to be done by the moon" At 37:00 he claims to have added nothing to the Word, but as shown above with Numbers 10:10, I have shown where certainly HAS added to the Word using circular reasoning.

Response: the moon does not set the time for the daily sacrifices, however the sun does set the time for these. The moon does not set all moedim, however, the sun, moon, and stars do (including the beginning of the year). The moon sets the month and week. The sun determines the day, and the sun and moon together determine the start of the year.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Problem #6Edit

At 38:45, ... lunar sabbatarians don't claim that all of Yahweh's moedim are set by the moon only because Numbers 28:2-4 proves otherwise. But, because all the other days in Leviticus 23 are set by the moon, they "prove" that the Sabbath must also be... even though that would require every 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of the month to be sanctified and should be listed... but are nowhere in scripture made holy by Yahweh... only the "seventh" day is in Genesis 2. Where is the acknowledgement and concession that the Sabbath day is not listed on specific days of the month in Leviticus 23 unlike almost every single other holy day is? As a note, wave sheaf offering is also not listed on a specific day of the month, so that is 2 out of 9 (or so?) that are listed in Leviticus 23 ... better than 80% odds, but is that conclusive? No. At best, it's a "safe bet" but is that really how we should be living our lives?

The context of Num. 28:1-8, it appears to describe a daily offering (vs 3: day-by-day) and vs. 4 (morning and even). A daily mo-adim is determined by the sun. All mo-adim are not set by the moon, however, all mo-adim are set by "natural", that is to say YHWH-driven astronomical events, and are thus anchored in the Word of YHWH, the Word being the spoken Word which created the sun, moon, stars -- the universe. One calendar vs. two calendars. The Sabbath is clearly determined by counting, the issue is regarding when to start counting. A continuous cycle has no basis for determining the start of cournting -- no event of sun, moon, or stars, as required by YHWH's calendar.

The phases of the moon are such a calendrical listing of Sabbaths. We have already been instructed to count. The new moon is an astronomical event from which counting started. A saturday sabbath has yet to be proven, nor has a continuous 7-day cycle been proven, such a cycle having nothing to do with the sun, moon, or stars.

Problem #7 - The MannaEdit

And at 46:00, A statement was made about the Hebrew regarding "double" and "twice" in Exodus 16:29 ... "Two" is defined in Exodus 16:22 by BOTH the words shenayim (8147) which IS the cardinal number TWO ... as in TWO omers .... AND by the word mishneh (4932). Attempting to use the Jubilee year as "proof" for Yahweh giving extra bread to get through the new moon sounds nice, but it is totally adding to scripture AND is disproved by Exodus 16:22.

At 46:46 he claims "there is no evidence to the contrary" and yet if you just looked at 7 verses before this, it defines what is meant in verse 29.

Response: The Hebrew word 4932 is not always specifically two, it can also express "two" in a figurative, specifically "next".

At 47:40, claims that "yes, YHWH DID provide 3 or 4 days of manna" ... and yet there is no scriptural proof of this. All we see is that TWO portions were gathered and there was no lack. TWO.

Response: There is no "specific" mention of 3 or 4 days of manna. There is a possibility that animals would have been slaughtered on the new moon day, as they had many animals with them. The Hebrew word "mishneh(4032) in Exodus 16:22. The word (4139) is translated different ways -- second, next, twice, double, short, college, fatlings. The jubilee year indicates a resetting of the cycling of years, as the third and even 4th years are specifically mentioned in that case.

In Ex 16:29, the hebrew word for "two" (8147), is not mentioned, neithen is 4932. The text is LHM YMIM, "bread of days".

For the weekly Sabbath, the portion would be two days, however, because the hebrew text only reads "days" it can allow for more than two days.

Ex 15:22 applies to the weekly Sabbath of the 22nd of the month (in that case, specifically two portions), whereas Ex. 15:29 may possibly apply to the Sabbath of the 29th of the month -- the end of the month -- and thus practically speaking of either 3 or 4 days. Note that the first use is a specific "two" but the second usage in vs 29 is not specifically "two".

Exo 16:29 See,H7200 forH3588 that the LORDH3068 hath givenH5414 you the sabbath,H7676 thereforeH5921 H3651 heH1931 givethH5414 you on the sixthH8345 dayH3117 the breadH3899 of two days;H3117 abideH3427 ye every manH376 in his place,H8478 let noH408 manH376 go outH3318 of his placeH4480 H4725 on the seventhH7637 day.H3117

Exo 16:22 And it came to pass,H1961 that on the sixthH8345 dayH3117 they gatheredH3950 twice as muchH4932 bread,H3899 twoH8147 omersH6016 for oneH259 man: and allH3605 the rulersH5387 of the congregationH5712 cameH935 and toldH5046 Moses.H4872

some examples of \figurative usage of 4932:

Deu 15:18 worthH7939 a doubleH4932 hired servantH7916 to thee,

a second (copy) here, or "another"

Deu 17:18 shall writeH3789 him(H853) a copyH4932 of thisH2063 lawH8451


here in another indefinite use:

1Sa 15:9 and of the fatlings,H4932 and the lambs,H3733

Problem #8Edit

Three days and three nights... please refer to my paper.

Response: Regarding three days and three nights, there is a clear pattern, and no floating wave-sheaf day. the 14th was the Passover, the 15th the Sabbath, and the 3rd day, the wave sheaf offering day. There was no exact 72 hour burial time, nor was Jonah in the belly of the great fish or whale for exactly 72 hours.

Problem #9Edit

About 52:50, it is stated that "there are no sabbaths in scripture that fall on other days of the month".

Response: What is meant by that statement is that, in scripture, you will not find mentions of Sabbaths on days other than 8,15,22,29. There are a couple of scriptures which some have claimed show such mentions, but upon close examination of these scriptures these claims have no basis. This point could be further discussed if desired.

Problem #10Edit

At 53:30 or so... Even though the word "saturday" is nowhere found in scripture, this does not disprove Saturday as the Sabbath.

Response: Agreed, such is an argument of silence. Please present your proof of saturday being the Sabbath, and we will examine it. Also, please present proof of the continuous weekly cycle. Note that there is proof regarding "resetting the Sabbath" in the Feast Days listing in Lev. 23 itself, as days of the month are specifically mentioned (10th and 15th).

Problem #11Edit

At 54:20 "The Israelites obviously understood that the new moon was a day of rest" is circular reasoning being used to "prove" something that proves itself.

Response: The timing of the giving of the law in the book of Deuteronomy is one such proof.

54:50 "New moons are considered as important as Sabbaths". Where is the proof from the Law? Amos 8:5 and Isaiah 66:23 are not from the Torah.

Response: A very important message by Moses, from YHWH, as noted in the book of Deuteronomy, was given on the new moon of the 11th month. Also, the quantities of offerings commanded for the first of the month are proof from the Torah.

56:40, he again says that "the new moon is a commanded rest day" where is this command found?

Response: These are commands not to buy or sell. The new moon is not a "rest day" in the same sense as the Sabbath.

Objection: This is a huge problem in the lunar sabbath belief, because it is necessary to believe that the new moon is a "rest day" in order to justify taking the first day of the month and not counting it in the "six days you shall work." But it can't be proven in the Law, and the other statements "proving it" are not "thou shalt" statements such as "you shall do no work". Amos 8:5, which says not to buy or sell does not prove that it is a holy day. If the new moon day were holy, it would require to make day 30 also a rest day, when it occurs, because otherwise, it would be neither a new moon day, a sabbath day or a work day. Where is a scriptural example that the 30th day is part of the new moon?. Is there any place in scripture that says that the day between the 4th Sabbath of the month and the new moon is a rest day? If you do not claim that the 30th day is a rest day, and we know that Yah gave TWO portions of bread on the 6th day (Exodus 16:22 .. look at the Hebrew, as noted above, it was NOT open ended extra manna), and the 30th day was the 1st day of the week... where did they get bread for the new moon day? (see problem #7 above)

Response: The new moon is a not a rest day as the Sabbath, but a day in which we are commanded not to buy or sell, and a day to be dedicated to the work of YHWH. There are three different types of days. There are no scriptural examples specifying what should happen should a new moon occur on a work day. It is impossible to observe a new moon without it being a specific type of day. There can be no conflict between work days and Sabbaths and new moons, and if the new moon were not a separate type of day there would be continuous conflicts of the new moon with either work days or a "sabbath". No such conflicts dealt with in scripture. Day 30 is part of the new moon celebration, so it falls in the category of "new moon". (See detailed explanation regarding Ex. 16:22 above. 4137 can be used in a figurative sense, and has different meanings. Vs 29 probably applies to the Sabbath of the 29th, whereas Ex. 16:22 would apply to the Sabbath of the 22nd.)

Problem #12Edit

1:02:30 It is stated that the new moon (a holy day) interrupts the week of Saturday keepers. However, Atonement interrupts the week of lunar sabbath keepers. Because Atonement happens on the 10th day of the month and is appointed by Yahweh on that day, it is allowed for one of Yahweh's holy moedim to interrupt the week. The new moon day is not a holy convocation nor a rest day in the Law.

Response: The calendar is reset on the 15th of th 7th after the 10th of the 7th. The cycle is interrupted by the Day of Atonement, just as the new moon resets the month, and the jubilee year resets the cycles of seven years. YHWH's feast days certainly are allowed to interrupt the Sabbath count, and this is only necessary for the day of atonement (and possibly the last day of unleavened bread). The day of Atonement is determined by counting from the new moon, just as the weekly Sabbath is determined by counting from the new moon. The new moon is the basis for the Sabbath, and on that basis the other Feast days are built.

Problem #13Edit

At 1:06:50 Lunar Sabbaths require the new moon to be a "Rest day" ... an idea that they read into Amos 8:5 and Numbers 10:10, even though Numbers 10:10 does not prove that all the moedim are rest days (specifically, Passover is a moedim but NOT a rest day) and there is also no other place that conclusively proves that the new moon is a rest day. Where are the two or three witnesses? All you have is Amos 8:5 to loosely prove that "no selling" means "all new moons are rest days."

This circular reasoning with the new moon day "rest day" is tiresome.

Response: Moedim means "appointed times", not "rest days". Not all Moedim are rest days. The new moon is a "rest day" from buying and selling, and working to earn a living. There are clearly types of work for YHWH allowed on the new moon. Two or three witnesses are not necessary to establish doctrine, as YHWH need only say things once for them to be true. However, all scriptures must be taken into consideration, and I do not see any conflicting scriptures.

Problem #14Edit

At 1:09:38 a statement is made that "the days of the month are all valid days, there are no non-days" ... so that means the 30th day of the month is the 1st day of the next week? If Yahweh provided manna on the 6th day (Exodus 16:22, 29) on the 28th for 4 days (28th, 29th 30th, new moon) ... and He provides manna ALL SIX DAYS (Exodus 16:26) ... if the 30th day of the month were a normal day, did Yahweh provide manna that day or not? If not, why not? If so, was it a double portion ON THE FIRST DAY (not 6th day) to cover the next "rest day" of the new moon?

Response: The 30th is a new moon day. Manna was provided for four days, or animals were slaughtered for the new moon. Please refer to above explanation.

Problem #15Edit

Regarding the meaning of shabuwa (7620), I assume that this relates to counting 7 weeks (which SHOULD correspond to 7 sabbaths) to the Feast of Weeks.

Related, at 1:12:15, suggests the translators should have just used "seven" instead of "week" because of their own bias, and yet there is already a Hebrew word for seven (7651) .. and it wasn't used in those places where shabuwa is used! So it shouldn't be "seven."

Response: The word "week" isn't the best word to use, as it does not exist in Hebrew. Also, there could be different meanings for words translated as seven, just as there are for the word translated as "two".

Problem #16Edit

Around 1:14:00, a statement is made that there aren't any non-days here because the "holy convocation is being kept", meaning the new moon day. And yet, Passover and Atonement both do not happen on the 8th/15th/22nd/29th and "interrupt" the six-day-then-sabbath pattern .There is no biblical proof to believe that some assembly (not a holy convocation, nor a rest day, but some kind of assembly) on the new moon day can't happen during a normal week. It is man's own idea that it can't happen.

Response: regarding resetting after the 10th of the 7th, it would be covered by the 15th of the 7th. Certainly an assembly, which is not sanctifed, may happen during the week, but I find no scriptural examples of it, other thanexamples of the camp assembling to move on, or the disciples breaking bread daily, regular work tasks.

Problem #17Edit

1:26:48 says "Counting the omer the way saturday keepers do doesn't come out at the wheat harvest" The problem is, an assumption is made that the wheat was planted AFTER the barley harvest, yet Exodus 9:31 and many other scriptures prove that the wheat and the barley are planted at the same time -- the barley matures first, and the wheat matures about 50 days later. So, actually it is the lunar sabbath doctrine that fails the omer count because they will be 50+ days late to the harvest of the wheat.

Response: There cannot be a floating wave sheaf day. This would make Pentecost to be variable lengths. The count must start the day after the Sabbath. The problem with saturday keeping is that the "sabbath" is floating, which makes the length of Pentecost to be a variable length from the real event, which was the Passover.

Exo 9:31 And the flaxH6594 and the barleyH8184 was smitten:H5221 forH3588 the barleyH8184 was in the ear,H24 and the flaxH6594 was bolled.H1392

Exo 9:32 But the wheatH2406 and the rieH3698 were notH3808 smitten:H5221 forH3588 theyH2007 were not grown up.H648

Regarding the wheat and the barley, the wheat was planted first, the rye was planted later. More can be discussed about the counting of Pentecost if desired.

At 1:28:40, it is stated that with a 50-day count, Pentecost would occur before Israel arrived at Mt. Sinai, based on Exodus 19:1. There is another possible meaning for that verse -- the same day of the week, rather than the same day of the month.

Response: There could be two meanings. However, Aaron proclaimed the feast to be a feast of YHWH, which would then make sense if Pentecost were the feast to which Aaron was referring. The golden calf was the sin (desecration of the feast), not the day the feast was being kept.

Problem #18Edit

1:32:30 It is stated that the talmud was not written down until 400 years after Yehushua. According to other information, the majority was actually compiled by 200 A.D. (the Mishnah). Is the talmud being discounted as a historic source because of the debates within it?

Response: I seriously question the validity of the talmud, as a case can be made that it is the babylonian mystery religion.

Objection: The Essenes many calendar documents could very easily be some of the same calendar issues (new moon vs conjunction ... vs where to observe... vs when to postpone.... etc.) ... is there any proof of Essene calendars that show lunar sabbath observance?

Response: there other historical proof, which can be further discussed, if desired.

Objection:

1:47:15 It is stated that it is not possible to make doctrine based archaelogical facts which aren't clearly understood. Are lunar sabbitarians making up doctrine, such as "the new moon is a rest day"?

Response: please refer to point 1, and the quote from "hope of israel".

Problem #19Edit

1:52:50, To the outside world, lunar Sabbatarians do not appear to be resting every seventh day over a period of time. If one were to observe a lunar sabbatarian during a peroid of two months would it be obvious to an outside observer? Many of these wars went on for years while these people observed their enemies. They certainly would have made note of a rest day based on the new moon, or at the very least some adjustment once a month to when their rest day was, if they were good observers of the people they were trying to conquer.

Response: Months beginning with a new moon were the norm. Weeks being reset at the new moon were also the norm. A defensive war would not have stopped on the Sabbath.

Problem #20Edit

Toward the very end of the recording, regarding the majority of the Jews being under Roman rule in the early 100s A.D., and thus influenced by them. What about the other 10 tribes of Israel? As in the "lost tribes" book by Stephen Collins, there were a whole host of other Israelites east of the Euphrates river that were keeping the Law at various times well past the time of Jerusalem. What about their history, and the history of the Jews that almost certainly had migrated there, and were not under Roman control?

Response: There are some other historical references. Perhaps the benei manashe is a good example.

Problem #21Edit

At 2:18:30, regarding Yom Kippur reseting the Sabbath count and it is reset again. There is no proof of this concept in scripture, it is completely inferred. Does this really resolve the "issue" of an interruption to the 6 day work cycle?

Response: The 15th of the 7th month clearly resets the Sabbath schedule every year, after the resetting of the 10th. Since it is clearly defined, there is no issue, it is perfectly good for the Sabbath to be reset in such a definition of YHWH.

Problem #22Edit

2:20:30, Could Amos 8:5 only be referring only to the Day of Trumpets? If so, then this scripture would not prove that the new moon is a rest day. Is not even any other scriptre that indicates this? Is there a reference in the Law to prove this? Does not the use of Amos 8:5 to prove that the new moon is a rest day, and then using that to prove Numbers 10:10 to prove the new moon a rest day require that Amos 8:5 be talking about all new moons?

Response: all it takes is one scripture to prove something. The timing of the Deuteronomy message also backs this up.

Problem #23 - The offerings in Numbers 28-29Edit

There are major issues with the actual offerings themselves that are given during the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Feast of Tabernacles because they do not include the Sabbath offerings. (There was an additional email written on this topic.)

Response: the Sabbath offerings would be additional. Please resend the email.

Reference: http://hope-of-israel.org/lunarsab.html, www.ministersnewcovenant.org, www.lunar-sabbath.info, www.worldslastchance.com, www.creationsabbath.com and a few others.

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